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Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1162	Posted - 2016.11.02 18:07:10 - [1] - Quote Nerfing PVP at this point is pointless because the only ones left playing are bitter vets. But it wouldn't hurt to add ships with more tank for high sec activities. But to me that is pointless because I will be playing F2P and won't be able to Mine or haul anything worth of note. And I already have several billion in isk and assets so losing a bunch of cruisers won't be a big deal. I'm trying to think of what this game needs to improve beyond better financial instruments, but I'm at a loss as nothing I can think of will make a difference at this point. If we have to rely on the forums to save EVE, the game is doomed. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1162	Posted - 2016.11.02 18:20:01 - [2] - Quote Tristan Valentina wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: Tiberius NoVegas wrote: This is why the OP's suggestion is self serving crap. Your points are all well made but I believe the real issue with isn't with high/low sec and much as its with null/W-space. If you look at the numbers for production in EVE vs destruction, youll find that production is overwhelmingly taking place in high/low sec. Destruction on the other hand is more even with slightly more destruction happening in high/low then null/w-space. So the OP is not wrong in that high/low is more dangerous then compared to null/w-space. This is wrong. Even if destruction is even, WAY fewer people live in null/WH space compared to Empire. Something around 80% of toons are in empire space. When you have 80% of the population and less than 50% of the destruction, it means you are safer than the other place. It means empire is too safe for the rewards offered there. The OP wants to increase that safety, which is the opposite of what should happen. You can'r lower rewards , so the real thing to do is lower safety. That won't happen either, but the LAST thing that should happen is increased safety. OP's idea increase safety, and is thus a bad idea. Quote: I believe this is an incentive issue more then a security issue. However you look at it, its not how the game was intended to be and more destruction needs to be incentive to null/w-space. this is why I think the risk vs reward aspect of eve is too in favor of high/low sec and needs to be readdressed. PVE carebears are not the problem, the disproportion of reward and preceived aspect of risk is the real issue. if anything it is now too easy to make money in null and WHspace. The problem isn't null/WH , it's that high sec is too safe and the OP wants more safety. I've learned to live with the current imbalances (coughIncursionscough), but making it worse with more safety isn't just bad, it's damn near criminal. I really like these arguments, MAKE HIGHSEC UNPROFITABLE!!! Please![/quote] You know I don't think people stay in high sec because of skewed risk/reward ratio, but rather a aversion to getting involved with people and politics. To live in null or WH requires other people and trust in those people not to screw you over with malice or sheer stupidity. I usually like to make lose alliances with people rather than join their own corporation, because when I do the CEO invariably does something stupid and gets us all killed. I suppose there are larger alliances but those have too much politics for my liking. And it's hard to be a neutral in null. So my gut feeling tells me that most people don't like interpersonal BS, so they stick to high sec and just solo or keep their Corp small. Even if you made high sec less profitable, it still would not encourage players to move out of high sec. They would rather quit, but at this point you can't really quit after the 15th so I don't know if that is valid anymore. You can just say they will stop paying subs since no point in mining in a exhumed if it's no longer profitable. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1163	Posted - 2016.11.02 18:52:57 - [3] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: To live in null or WH requires other people and trust in those people not to screw you over with malice or sheer stupidity. Thisi is untrue,so untrue I'll link someone I actually cannot stand. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 Hell, I even ninja'd null rats when I was bored with FW in 2013. But that's technically not living but rather working in null sec. Sure there are stations that tolerate neutrals but it still requires some politicking for the neutral. And I specifically said live. If you have to fly back and forth between high sec and null.... Well... You only visit there. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1163	Posted - 2016.11.02 18:58:10 - [4] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Raca Pyrrea wrote: Black Pedro wrote: If anything, the game needs more easy ways for players to see how much cargo a particular ship is carrying, both for haulers so they can appreciate the risks they face, and for pirates to select targets. Basically its not about pvp, gameplay, sandbox, but effectively you want risk free ISK I believe that the protective mechanics for the hisecers are enough as they are but what needs to change is the risk for the suicide ganker. Add a mechanism for an increased loss of lootdrop, say a 70-100% chance for loot destruction(/CONCORD confiscation) in 0.8-1 systems, 50-80% for 0.5-0.7 systems. in addition make cargoscan accuracy skill based, but give to the visctim the chance to counter that (skill based again). I'm sorry, but this is just dead wrong. When a group ganks a freighter they are imposing risk on those seeking risk. That is as it should be. To be fair, gankers are also risk adverse. They mostly ignore bot fleets with nothing but 20 skiffs and kill the one poor bastard in a hulk. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1163	Posted - 2016.11.02 19:29:26 - [5] - Quote Merovee wrote: To: CCP Good job on the game , after playing Civ I was wondering when you will be planning a ground game for eve on the planets? Merovee Bwahahahahahahahah! I guess you didn't hear about Dust 514. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1163	Posted - 2016.11.02 19:45:53 - [6] - Quote You know there was someone on mining chat last night bragging how his Intel network in null made it safer to mine there than in high sec. I mean I guess he's right. If someone shows up in local, you know to warp out. If ganker shows up in local in high sec, you won't notice it until you see flashing red ships blapping you. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 13:10:30 - [7] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: However being ganked by a bunch of carebears who hide behind the protection of CONCORD, is not and that needs to change. Why are the cops protecting -10 criminals? Any idiot knows the game does not protect -10 outlaws. It takes a special idiot to think they are protected by any means other than through their own risk management. So no flagging for killing a -10 and no Concord reaction? Sorry I read the crime watch blog and it does not state this and I am waiting for alpha before I go out ganking people. Oh and as to the any idiot bit. My apologies, I have a life. No, no suspect or criminal flag if you kill a -10 outlaw. In fact, as soon as any character reaches -5 they are open season for everyone in highsec. Is your knowledge of mechanics so vacuous that you don't know this, yet post on the forum like you have a clue? It would seem it is. No surprise really. As for having a life. Ho hum. We all do. That isn't unique, nor somehow a slight at those of us that actually know the rules of the game. I think the question should be "why do NPC stations allow -10 criminals to dock?" Also at the same time I always wondered why Jita 4-4 lets people who at war with the Caldari state dock up too. I mean it always seemed odd that they would pursue these targets but yet once they dock, they are on holy ground. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 13:20:48 - [8] - Quote I've got a question... Why do NPC stations in hi-sec allow -10 criminals to dock? Also why does Jita 4-4 let players who are at war with the Caldari state also dock? It just seems rather odd. Like the NPCs care about it enough to send ships to hunt you down while you are in their space, but as soon as you dock you apparently have sanctum on holy ground. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 13:58:22 - [9] - Quote Perhaps, we shouldn't be looking to make hi-sec safer for law abiding citizens, but making it more dangerous for criminals. Currently, a Merc Corp can really do nothing to catch a -10 criminal. What mechanics would open up criminals to non-consensual PVP? [edit] I've got one but it might make a lot of people mad... Add a 10 to 30 second cool down before you can warp after undocking. Apply it to everyone to be fair. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 14:06:20 - [10] - Quote Steffles wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Perhaps, we shouldn't be looking to make hi-sec safer for law abiding citizens, but making it more dangerous for criminals. Currently, a Merc Corp can really do nothing to catch a -10 criminal. What mechanics would open up criminals to non-consensual PVP? There are none that would be acceptable to CCP. The -10's are of course alts. They are in ships designed to die. Killing one of their ships is not a deterrent nor costly to them - to do so would require you losing the isk war by a very large margin. The only real solution would be CCP identifying their mains however CCP will never do that. You are therefore SOL. I've got one but it might make a lot of people mad... Add a 10 to 30 second cool down before you can warp after undocking. Apply it to everyone to be fair. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.

Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 14:26:27 - [11] - Quote Steffles wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Steffles wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Perhaps, we shouldn't be looking to make hi-sec safer for law abiding citizens, but making it more dangerous for criminals. Currently, a Merc Corp can really do nothing to catch a -10 criminal. What mechanics would open up criminals to non-consensual PVP? There are none that would be acceptable to CCP. The -10's are of course alts. They are in ships designed to die. Killing one of their ships is not a deterrent nor costly to them - to do so would require you losing the isk war by a very large margin. The only real solution would be CCP identifying their mains however CCP will never do that. You are therefore SOL. I've got one but it might make a lot of people mad... Add a 10 to 30 second cool down before you can warp after undocking. Apply it to everyone to be fair. Not sure why anyone would get mad. They are after all allowed and are part of the game. Your suggestion would make a shiteton of people mad though but it'd be pretty nice not just for -10's but for all of EvE. 10 seconds after timer expires or turns off since there's an immunity timer after undocking. Realistically for -10's though I think pod only travel, for the purpose of buying / utilizing tags is a good option. Not like tags are that expensive anymore. I don't know. I think podding people undocking would be legit. Also I'm surprised no one has suggested warp cool downs after undocking as a thing before. Sure it would make undocking at Jita while at war a bad thing, but it would be a small price to pay to balance everything out. I never did like the concept of instant warping after undocking anyways. This would increase overall risk I suppose... Worth it though. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1165	Posted - 2016.11.03 14:34:04 - [12] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: I've got one but it might make a lot of people mad... Add a 10 to 30 second cool down before you can warp after undocking. Apply it to everyone to be fair. I don't understand the need some have to make things easier for people. EVe already provides all the tools one needs to be extremely safe. The real problem is high security space. unlike the other 84% of EVE space, high sec doesn't teach players to protect themselves, so they don,t, and they get preyed upon, and they blame the game rather than putting the fault where it really lies (on themselves), and some of them come to a forum asking for developer intervention. In 9+ years I've lost 2 shuttles and a pod to 'criminals' in high sec. Even when I've gone back to high sec to run missions and incursions and even now when I haul loot to jita I have zero problems (because I treat ALL space as hostile space, I mjd'claok gate to gate between jita and amarr for example). Being that I've played outside of high sec most of that time (in space where there is no help except other people and maybe a weak gate gun in low sec), the habits formed there make high sec 'criminals' a non issue. But somehow you can't teach that to high seccers at all. They are like the privileged kids of EVE, you can't convince them that they have to make an effort for what they want (safety) rather than just rely on their butler and chauffeur lol. Time and again CCP has buffed these types (buffed mining ships, safeties, pop ups that won't let you make a mistake etc) and they STILL complain. Which shows that CCP also has a hard time learning, in this case it's learning that you can't coddle some people enough for them to be comfortable in a harsh game, and trying is stupid. IMO high sec players were less stupid before all the safeties/pop ups and such, because hihgh sec was more dangerous and it was easier to learn that you had to protect your self a little at least. My suggestion actually increases risk for everyone. I suspect people in low sec would love warp cool downs. It doesn't actually make it safer or prevent ganking if the miners choose to be whimps about it. My suggestions just gives the opportunity to engage criminals or war targets on undock. It creates more opportunity for PVP and does not make mining or hauling any safer. It just gives those who want to actually PVP an opportunity to get it. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 16:30:06 - [13] - Quote I am well aware that it would result in bad days for lots of people. That is my point. How would you bring non-consensual PVP to hi sec criminals? I mean the only other thing I can think of is to force anyone in an NPC Corp to green safeties until they join a player Corp. Won't stop throw away corps though. The key problem now is that the behavior can't really be countered by PVP. The optimal solution would not to nerf ganking or buff mining and hauler EHP, but make a system where the miners or mercs can become the police themselves. How would you propose for that to happen? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 16:36:06 - [14] - Quote Hrm... What might make throw away corps less problematic if if you quit or disband the decced Corp that you remain a war target for 7 days unless the Corp agrees to a peace deal. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 16:55:24 - [15] - Quote You know what I mean by non-consensual PVP... Targets that shoot back. How do you make this happen? If you can't make this interaction symmetrical then you just get discouraged players who eventually lack to will to login. And keep in mind this is coming from someone who has never been ganked outside of faction warfare despite hundreds of hours mining. And if you google my name, you might find that I'm listed on a kill while in an NPC Corp on a freighter. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 19:23:26 - [16] - Quote Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote: Mark Marconi wrote: Look Carebear, it is the lack of risk to the ganker that is the problem. There is no profit to be made in hunting them. Now I know you don't want the possibility of someone ganking you for profit but really if you want a safe hi-sec maybe you should go play WOW. As usual, you are wrong. It's fairly profitable to hunt gankers. They drop T2 guns and weapon upgrades, plus many have bounties. It may be boring to hunt them, but that's another issue. Gankers also risk their bumping machs, scouts, and loot scoopers. They don't just magically get the loot transported to station after a gank. They can and have lost freighters and DSTs trying to get the loot back to station. Captain Tardbar wrote: I think the question should be "why do NPC stations allow -10 criminals to dock?" Also at the same time I always wondered why Jita 4-4 lets people who at war with the Caldari state dock up too. I mean it always seemed odd that they would pursue these targets but yet once they dock, they are on holy ground. I made this analogy in another thread: In IRL, once a criminal is released from prison, they can go to the mall or Walmart just like any other citizen. Their money is just as good as yours. Captain Tardbar wrote: Hrm... What might make throw away corps less problematic if if you quit or disband the decced Corp that you remain a war target for 7 days unless the Corp agrees to a peace deal. LOL I don't think you know what you're asking for. CODE and merc alliances would LOVE LOVE that change. Hrm... If I'm not mistaken the NPCs faction police hunt -10 players. So technically they are still wanted criminals. So if they go to the mall, the mall security would be actively hunting them down. Of course if they stab a shopper a SWAT team sniper comes out and shoots them. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 19:46:57 - [17] - Quote Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: [ Hrm... If I'm not mistaken the NPCs faction police hunt -10 players. So technically they are still wanted criminals. So if they go to the mall, the mall security would be actively hunting them down. Of course if they stab a shopper a SWAT team sniper comes out and shoots them. Yes, they are hunted by FACPO, which is why they sit in station and only fly fast aligning ships most of the time. IIRC they have about 20 seconds until FACPO shows up and other 10 until they get shot up. Would you like to see FACPO removed so gankers stay in space more? We could compromise. Remove faction police. Add, 10 second warp cool down for all -10 players. Call it security tax. That reasonable? Sure they'll hang in safe spots after that, but any Merc worth their salt can scan them down. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 19:55:43 - [18] - Quote Alternatively... And here me out. Remove all faction police. Then make it so -10 players can only dock as a pod in high sec. They can equip a ship and undock, but if they try to redock it won't let them until they are a pod again. So they will spend their time prepping for a gank outside stations. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1167	Posted - 2016.11.03 20:35:06 - [19] - Quote Also I would amend my idea to only have 10 warp cool down on anything other than a pod, since I could foresee a -10 player dock in Jita only to be podded over and over again on undock. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 13:34:26 - [20] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Artemis Ellery Sazas wrote: Criminals are given warnings and chased by FACPO when they enter certain systems, but I have always wondered why docking rights for those criminals are not pulled by the 4 factions as well. Criminals or other gankers would not be able to easily reship or hide while their timers are running down. With the introduction of citadels, criminals can now use an alt to install citadels and have docking rights to those, but then gankers or criminals would have something to lose because the alt corp could be war dec'd. Make the game a little more interesting and give the criminals something to protect or lose, while they also cause havoc in high sec. A sec status of -10 means nothing and does not have any real restrictions that can't easily be bypassed. Isn't this what is EVE is about, Risk vs Reward? I do find it ironic that gankers complain High sec is too safe, all the while their mains are sitting in the safety of Null sec running endless combat anoms and mining fresh ore anoms every 1/2 hour after depletion. When I lived in Null, there were days that would go by without seeing a neutral come through the pocket, while making about 150 mil/hr running Rock Havens. Having lived in all sectors, except wh, Null sec by far is the safest space in EVE, while High sec is the most dangerous and Low sec is easily the most fun. why dont you just go and camp the undock of where the gankers live or hunt the nullsec alts? or how about pay someone to do it, because you know if pirates want something done that doesnt involve shooting they have to pay carebears to do it or learn it themselves, maybe all you highsec carebears can form some sort of coalition and pay people to deal with it, that involves interaction though which you may not like. null is safe because people make it safe and adapt, unlike people like you who just complain to ccp because people are using mechanics available which you dont like, god forbid if they ever let cyno's into highsec. -10.0 holds plenty of restrictions, i.e we have to pay for alts to buy ships for us as we cant enter into highsec, which adds risk of getting ganked, but we are smart and dont make ourselves look like idiots that get ganked being bad. Again, how about a compromise of removing faction police and putting a 10 second warp cool down for -10 players flying anything more than a pod? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz

Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 13:50:34 - [21] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: thats up there with the most stupid ideas ive ever heard, maybe you guys could adopt some tactics that low, null and wh players use, intel channels, scouts and awareness Wow. As they say on 4chan..."Not an argument." The point of the suggestion was to make -10 players be averse to station camping. With the removal of faction police they wouldn't be forced to station camp. The 10 second rule is to make them avoid NPC stations. I would bet this compromise would be favorable to gankers as 99% of the time miners aren't paying attention to who is in the system anyways. Either than can risk an extra 10 seconds while undocking on NPC station (which unless a person is actively hunting them won't matter) or they can buddy up with a player owned citadel and have no undocking timer. And I would think removing the faction police all together would be something gankers would like. I personally think the faction police are bad for mercs simply because -10 are encouraged to dock up all the time. Again this is coming from some one who has never been ganked outside of FW and who has ganked and given Intel to gankers. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 13:55:19 - [22] - Quote Cien Banchiere wrote: If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot. My suggestion increases PVP and benefits mercs, not Care Bears. People who are averse to PVP will still get ganked. Those who want to harden up or contract mercs will be benefited. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 14:16:46 - [23] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Cien Banchiere wrote: If this thread had any good ideas I think they went in the shitter in the first,couple pages. The only decent idea proposed was "use your tools and watch out for yourself". The same advice given for over a decade. We have fields buried with thease dead horses. Fields. If you have issues with criminal and pirate types just figure it out. I did. I,spent two years in HS and met all sorts of awful people. It was fun. You learn a lot. My suggestion increases PVP and benefits mercs, not Care Bears. People who are averse to PVP will still get ganked. Those who want to harden up or contract mercs will be benefited. As explained, PVPrs and 'mercs' have enough advantages, they don't need more. CCP does need to stop nerfing people who do interesting things (that other of us can then learn to counter, which is the fun of being an EVE PVE players), but they sure as hell don't need a buff. Maybe I should have posted my idea under an alt as sometimes I antagonize people too much for the lulz. But anyways.... Wouldn't you agree that the faction police need to go? They basically encourage station camping and creates less player made content. I suggested the 10 second rule not as a nerf but to balance it out and discourage station camping at NPC. The suggested player owned citadel exemption just creates more player conflict content as those who harbor reds could have the chance of being targeted as well. And don't we want more content in high sec? I mean I'd be fine with just taking away faction police without doing anything else, but if you want that you need to concede something to the Care Bears. Either adding the 10 second rule or making reds onlydock able at player structures. I mean you can be hostile all you want to them, the alternative is just a threadnaught. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 14:29:41 - [24] - Quote And look, if we went the route a banning reds from NPC stations, I wouldn't be opposed to adding pirate faction mini citadels at a way cheaper price than current citadels so gankers can easily deploy in systems. And getting rid of the faction police is still a value added offer. The idea is to make players more responsible for their actions. I'd also agree to making NPC stations less desirable over all to encourage players to get out of them in general. Being safe havens should come at a price, don't you agree? Despite my grudge, citadels were the best idea CCP has come up with in along time. We should make use of them. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 14:38:07 - [25] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions. Would you agree to: A. Getting rid of faction police? And B. Making it undesirable to use NPC stations for safe havens for everyone (not just gankers) "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 15:15:01 - [26] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Lan Wang wrote: people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions. This i think is what Tardbar and others with similar ideas don't understand. You simply can't fix (or game develop away) laziness, stupidity and victim-hood thinking. Look at all the changes CCP made, safeties, protective pop ups, more EHP for mining ships, slots for freighter class ships, higgs anchor riggs, the recent anti-bumping warp mechanics change, the YEARS of tinkering with the war dec and bounty systems etc etc. And STILL we have these threads. How much more has to happen before people understand that the problem isn't game mechanics, it's the mental and emotional characteristics of certain players that other players are good at exploiting? When will they learn that NO external change if going to solve their problem, that the ONLY option is an individual, internal change that would make those players mostly invulnerable to the actions of others? I know the answer, it's the same in game is it is out (never...). But it's a shame, because the game developer seems to also think like that to. Notice the revamped (for the umpteenth time) NPE and the free to play thing, neither are which are likely to succeed because CCP seems to really not understand what EVE is and why it's players like it. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll be fed for the rest of his life. Teach all men to fish, and the fish population will go extinct and everyone starves. So what I am saying here is that everyone flew a 100k EHP Skiff I would suspect there would be complaints from a certain excuse. People claim and point to others stupidity for the reasons for their behavior, but in reality they'd be out of a profession if everyone did what they claim they want them to do. I mean I'm getting out of the ice mining business since you can't do that on an Alpha account, but I've always felt like the 20 man bot fleets needed to be ganked, but no one... CODE or mercs were up to the challenge because they flew skiffs with a tanked Orca. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 15:28:07 - [27] - Quote Ima Wreckyou wrote: All this was suggested before. Citadels are cheap and take a lot of time to bring down. I really doubt a carebear mob will form and attack them, especially since they are already used by ganker corps and no such thing happened. Even if they form a replacement will be deployed right away and you will be back crying about "throwaway citadels" and how it is not really risking assets if you already know someone will blow them up. There is no problem here that needs to be solved. Just some wrong carebear expectations that need to be adjusted. That is my point. Chances are Care Bears won't fight back. But Mercs and PVP players will get a better chance to find people in space or their home base and deliver the appropriate measure of force. Again, I've never been ganked in high sec outside of faction warfare, so it's not like I feel the need to get revenge for my lost space pixels. I just find the fact that players use NPC mechanics to avoid PVP goes against the spirit of EVE. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 18:12:22 - [28] - Quote Keno Skir wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Lan Wang wrote: people getting ganked is the result of people not being responsible for their own actions. Would you agree to: A. Getting rid of faction police? And B. Making it undesirable to use NPC stations for safe havens for everyone (not just gankers) No. I would have Hisec people adapt to survive like people do in Nul, Low and Wormhole space to differing degrees. If it's possible in Nul, it's very possible in Hisec. People's refusal to use safe practices to avoid ganking are why ganking is a thing, and no amount of begging for a nerf is going to make those same folks any less to blame. This is a player solvable problem (as demonstrated by all the freighter guys who never get ganked vs the ones who always do) not a mechanic problem CCP need to fix. Stop being such Wendy's and overcome the obstacle. Loads of good stategies have been suggested so far and there is ONE reason the anti-gank crew havn't picked up on any of them. Laziness.. But Wormhole and much of null doesn't have indestructible NPC stations. I mean if you are suggesting removing many of the NPC stations in high sec to put it on the same risk level as WH and null then yeah we are in agreement. Are you for doing that? Is anyone reading what I'm saying? My inflammatory signature usually helps people differentiate me between other people. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 18:21:16 - [29] - Quote How about this suggestion: 1. Get rid of faction police 2. Slowly replace NPC stations with player Citadels across the the board If you really want high sec players to face the same conditions as WH and null players then getting everyone in high sec out of NPC stations would be the best option. Please tell me with a straight face how this suggestion is pro care bear. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 18:36:51 - [30] - Quote Actually to add to my suggestion, NPC stations I high sec should be consolidated to fewer and fewer locations. If you have stuff in a station that is decommissioned then your things get moved to systems that are less economically viable. The goal would be to get all NPC stations out of systems with ice belts. So this forces Care Bears and gankers alike to deal with living beings in high economic systems. And that creates more player made content. Isn't that what we are looking for? "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz

Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 18:50:44 - [31] - Quote Lasisha Mishi wrote: how about you leave high sec as it is now and go to lowsec since thats apparently what your looking for. if you want pvp. go low and nullsec. if you want alot less pvp, thats why highsec is there with concord. don't force your desire on others, when what you desire already exists. I'd hate to agree with Jenna but EVE is PVP game and hi sec should have its fair share of PVP. I'm not sure if you were talking to me but I wasn't advocating more PVP, but rather turning over control of stations to players like they did with POCOS. You still have concord and you still have placed to dock. Just don't complain because you are being forced to interact with other players. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 19:23:35 - [32] - Quote I'm not suggesting to get rid of NPC stations out of all systems in hi sec. I'm suggesting to move them out of high economic value systems such as ones that have ice belts. You shouldn't make hand over fist profits without a little risk. Now I've modified my ideas over and over again in this thread to see if I can get my ideas to stick to both sides of the issue. Now I've gone from the care bear side to PVP apparently. Look, ice mining is an end game income source. Unless a newb buys an ice miner it takes some time to become one. You shouldn't be able to mine ice without risk (goddamn I just agreed with Jenna again). Fist, there still will be NPC station outside of ice belt systems. No one is forcing you to keep your ships in citadels. Second, you could always haul your ice out of the system if you were that antisocial. I mean really. Those 20 skiff fleets are notorious for blocking communication with other players. Boo hoo. We are making them interact with other players. Maybe they should get out of that NPC Corp if they don't like other players citadels and place their own. And we have a bonus that gankers don't have sanctuary in NPC stations because they are moved out of ice belt systems. Maybe you should find a Merc Corp to deal with them now. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 19:35:33 - [33] - Quote Well, it's annoying enough to not know hen an ice belt will spawn, so I think if you made the where random it would just make ice mining and ganking ice miners too annoying for both parties. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 20:17:45 - [34] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: I mean really. Those 20 skiff fleets are notorious for blocking communication with other players. What? What does that mean? How does a 20 man/alt skiff fleet block communication? Do you mean that they don't communicate with other players? Why would we expect them to start communicating under your system? I mean if you try to communicate with the multi boxer he had his settings to ignore all convos. But maybe communication is the wrong phrase. We are looking for more player interaction. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 20:21:20 - [35] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Actually to add to my suggestion, NPC stations I high sec should be consolidated to fewer and fewer locations. If you have stuff in a station that is decommissioned then your things get moved to systems that are less economically viable. The goal would be to get all NPC stations out of systems with ice belts. So this forces Care Bears and gankers alike to deal with living beings in high economic systems. And that creates more player made content. Isn't that what we are looking for? Or not. If you increase the costs of doing something the typical solution is to do less of it or even stop it altogether. You have an implicit assumption in there: that the number of players/ships/etc. won't change. That is an overly strong assumption and one that will almost sure turn out to be false. Actually, Citadel fees are much lower than NPCs and since citadels compete with each other they usually they have prices even lower. Only people that **** off all the Citadel owners and refuse to set up their own will be affected. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 21:00:21 - [36] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Actually to add to my suggestion, NPC stations I high sec should be consolidated to fewer and fewer locations. If you have stuff in a station that is decommissioned then your things get moved to systems that are less economically viable. The goal would be to get all NPC stations out of systems with ice belts. So this forces Care Bears and gankers alike to deal with living beings in high economic systems. And that creates more player made content. Isn't that what we are looking for? Or not. If you increase the costs of doing something the typical solution is to do less of it or even stop it altogether. You have an implicit assumption in there: that the number of players/ships/etc. won't change. That is an overly strong assumption and one that will almost sure turn out to be false. Actually, Citadel fees are much lower than NPCs and since citadels compete with each other they usually they have prices even lower. Only people that **** off all the Citadel owners and refuse to set up their own will be affected. Okay, but again, those affected, assuming it is not zero, could mean less people in space, less content. And another question, why would I, as a citadel owner, not want such a "customer". After all 20 skiffs...alot of ice, alot of fees? No? It's the same concept of quitting if you were ganked. Most PVPers don't want those players subscribed to EVE anyways. As in those players weren't providing content anyways (more players does not mean more content if they are just alts) And it's debatable what citadel owners would do with botters. Some might be fine with doing business with them. Its just the nuclear option is on the table for anyone with resources to destroy all the citadels that do business with him. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1168	Posted - 2016.11.04 23:37:56 - [37] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: It's the same concept of quitting if you were ganked. Most PVPers don't want those players subscribed to EVE anyways. So, now the "more content" hypothesis is looking less tenable. Quote: And it's debatable what citadel owners would do with botters. Some might be fine with doing business with them. Not defending them, but they are not botters. Quote: Its just the nuclear option is on the table for anyone with resources to destroy all the citadels that do business with him. That sounds even less likely. The benefits of having a 20 man skiff fleet are concentrated right? That is why some people do it. The costs are not so concentrated. And the costs of citadel owner letting such players do business are even more diffuse, and blowing up that citadel might mean blowing up a citadel you were using, or was competing with the citadel you were using.... And, if you are a player who uses ice products but also doesn't mine. Nahh...just not seeing it. I'm not sure if your points matter. Should we transfer all the POCOS back to NPCs so players won't be taxes by players? CCP wants players to stop relying on NPCs. You can tell because they raised taxes in all NPC stations. I just don't think they have got to the point of reducing NPC stations at this point, but they should continue with that trend. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". Join Captain Tardbar's Discord Voice Server: https://discord.gg/ye9g5uz
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1169	Posted - 2016.11.06 05:54:24 - [38] - Quote Mark Marconi wrote: Galaxy Duck wrote: You're right, they should be taking advice from people who accuse them of being liars, or maybe the folks who think them too incompetent to do basic statistics! Please continue to try and deflect from the fact that your logic is crap. P.S. "working" for ISK if for carebears, and carebears are livestock. The very fact that you consider a sample of 80,000 people to determine whether people actually stay longer or leave due to ganking a basic statistic, means you know nothing about statistics and should not really comment on it. Every time I quit, I lie and put the option that I'm qutting due to lost ship even though while mining I have never been ganked. Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people? Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1173	Posted - 2016.11.10 15:56:42 - [39] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Infinity Ziona, lets do some real talk here for a moment... After looking at your killboard you seem to be a hypocrite. you have 13+ kills of pve/highsec players on your killboard including 2 retrievers and 2 noctis please explain to us Those are ironic ganks, smh! To be honest, pro-PVE gankers are the least biased people on this thread. They know the mechanics required for ganking. Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people? Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

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